时光倒流
有懂巴以局势的么?
11607
356
2009-01-06 21:03:00
支持以色列!!!
首先,以色列的土地永远属于以色列人,犹太人和穆斯林人对耶路撒冷的争夺已经几千年了,耶路撒冷永远属于犹太人。
其次,所谓“空降国”是左翼国家的一种流氓说法,如果一个民族因为战争在历史的某一段时间对某一片原本属于自己的土地失去了控制,就代表这片土地不属于此民族的话,那么按照此流氓逻辑,香港澳门台湾和钓鱼刀都不属于中国。
最后,以色列人一直在给加沙的难民提供食品饮用水和电力,但是哈马斯却利用无辜的加沙难民做肉体挡箭牌。
If the Muslim lay down their weapon, there will be no more war; if the Jewish lay down their weapon, there will be no more Israel.
What a bold statement! I can see you being poetic stating an extremely pathetic claim! I can definitely assert that your knowlege about the history of that area emanates from a zionist propaganda. Let me carefully comment your rather foolish statement: "If the Muslim lay down their weapon, there will be no more war" ... that is actually true for the simple reason that they will be consequently colonized and annihilated by the israHelly cowards! "if the Jewish lay down their weapon, there will be no more Israel" ... that would be great, because that one racist colonialist entity should have not existed from the beginning.
巴勒斯坦从来没有建国(而一直作为巴勒斯坦地区),对耶路撒冷的争夺只是在犹太人和穆斯林人之间翻来覆去几千年。犹太人被穆斯林人从自己的土地上打跑了,因为穆斯林的手段一向是灭绝式屠杀。
同理,台湾不被中华人民共和国统治多少年才不算中国国土?一个民族的土地永远属于这个民族。建议你研究一下穆斯林人有史以来侵占耶路撒冷累计一共多少年。
First, you should really cut this bullshit and go learn about history first. Jerusalem has never been Jewish for more than probably 150 years at most except in rotten minds like yours of course. Historically, Muslim has been the best people to Jews who have been exterminated by many other groups. The Jews were kicked out of Jerusalem by the Roman (you should at least know this). And only after the Muslim kicked the Romans out of Palestine that the Jews started living in Peace there! If you need any good references on this matter, I'm more than happy to help!
谢谢mm,要是不麻烦的话多贴点文章吧。美国媒体都是犹太人控制的,我觉得实在是不好找客观的文章。
The following links are facts and opinions about the conflict in the region compiled by a very famous Israeli computer scientist (Oded Goldreich):
http://www.wisdom.weizmann.ac.il/~oded/politics.html
http://www.wisdom.weizmann.ac.il/~oded/PS/pi.pdf
The following organization is also Israeli but is against the crimes that Israel has committed:
As for the history of the conflict, one could check the following
http://www.merip.org/palestine-israel_primer/toc-pal-isr-primer.html
Other interesting media:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tW1-_JmXQt0&mode=related&search=
Naom Chomsky is also a good reference.
现在的问题是,
无论以色列建国合理与否,
其已经是一个既成事实,
而武力战胜以色列又不现实(五次中东战争以色列全部打赢了),
巴勒斯坦人有必要面对这一现实,
法塔赫现在基本上是在走比较现实的土地换和平道路,
以色列也撤出了加沙,
但是哈马斯的崛起改变了这一情况。
I agree with you, Hamas is far from being smart ... they're definitely handling the situation so badly. Palestinian should adopt a much better strategy than Hamas' in order to negociate with the zionists.
我发现家里居然有本历史图册啊。贴上一些内容分享。犹太教最早是在埃及出现的。2nd century BC. 意大利1century AD, spain 200AD, Germany 300AD. 然后有一张图,耶路撒冷是所谓圣地(但是不是国家),Gaza不在其内。132-135AD,罗马人吧犹太人从该地区赶走了。这个是最早。
Palestine is the whole land that encloses Jerusalem,Haifa, Tel-aviv, Gaza ... Palestine existed way longer before any Jew stepped in there. BTW Gaza is a much more recent city compared to Jerusalem. Palestinians (pre-Judaisam, Christian and Muslim) have been living in Jerusalem and other neighboring parts for ever.
有没有比较简洁点的欧洲,中东的历史(最好比较大众口味)的英文书推荐啊? 我之前买了一本大部头的历史书,一直懒得看.谢谢.
Actually http://www.wisdom.weizmann.ac.il/~oded/PS/pi.pdf is very simple to read and has very important historical fact of the region. Unfortunately, I don't have a book in mind that you can purchase in the US (where publications are strongly controlled by pro-Israeli groups). I also recommend to watch the following movies:
http://www.mediaed.org/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=117
http://www.mediaed.org/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=404
http://www.mediaed.org/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=403
Just for fun, you should also watch this guy bashing a stupid Israel-biased journalist:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Wdwk1dp-uU
公元前1000年到公元前70年只有一百多年?大卫王之前,耶路撒冷已经是犹太人的,只是还不是圣城。大卫王约公元前1000年在耶路撒冷建都,到公元前586年耶路撒冷沦陷于巴比伦帝国。之后这个地方大部分时间由犹太人直接管理,直到大约公元150年左右,大多数犹太人被罗马帝国逐出巴勒斯坦。这个里面的时间也很长。
所以说犹太人至少一千年时间在这个地方,而非一百多年。
Let me make this clear. Jews lived in Jerusalem for thousands of years; there is no doubt; however, they have NEVER EVER been a MAJORITY there for more than probably 150 years. That is my point! I can't call a place X Jewish or Hebrew because some Jews lived there or because they claimed that X is their saint corner. In that same logic every single country on earth will be Jewish!
这个。。。不知道妹妹的历史是什么时候开始的。
犹太人在耶路撒冷不可能只有150年历史。古代犹大国一直一耶路撒冷为首都,就是以色列国灭亡后,犹大国又存在了一百多年。之后犹太人几次给分散,有几次回来,直到罗马最后把犹太人逐出耶路撒冷,这个地方基本上都是犹太人管理的。
波斯人应该说对犹太人不错,但是波斯人也只是让犹太人管理自己的地方而已。不是说穆斯林吧罗马人赶出去了犹太人才开始在那里住得。之前他们已经在那里很久了,而且公元前一千年大卫王把神龛搬到耶路撒冷,所罗门王在当地建造了神殿,这个地方就是犹太人的圣地了。
大家先看看这个简缩本:
犹太人当初并不叫犹太人,而是叫希伯来人或者以色列人。到巴勒斯坦以后,大约在公元前1000年左右,建立了希伯来王国,这是犹太人的第一个国家。第一个希伯来王是扫罗,但真正使希伯来王国强盛的是大卫和所罗门。
巴勒斯坦这个地方是欧亚非的交通要道,地理区域比较狭小,这就决定了这个地方是征战之地,即使诞生了国家,也不会是个大国。大卫的希伯来王国算是强大的了,通过不停的战争,统治的区域已到达红海和幼发拉底河。到了公元前930年,这个希伯来王国分成了两个国家,北面的叫以色列国,南面的叫犹大国。历史上,希伯来人雅各的12个儿子发展成了希伯来人的12个部落,这12个部落,有10个在以色列国,2个在犹大国。以色列国和犹大国除了与外族发生战争,他们之间也经常打仗。
公元前722年,强大的亚述人灭亡了以色列国,把以色列人掳掠到亚述帝国各地,这些以色列人在与当地人的混居中,逐渐被同化,从此希伯来人的这10个支派就消失了。亚述人使用了铁制的兵器,他们的军队所向无敌,亚述帝国征服了近东所有的文明地区。亚述人是现在的库尔德人,他们和犹太人、阿拉伯人都属于闪人。由于和希伯来人语言、习惯接近,所以这10个支派的以色列人被同化是很正常的。
公元前586年,新巴比伦王国灭亡了犹大国。和亚述帝国一样,巴比伦王国也把犹大人作为俘虏掳掠到巴比伦。公元前591年,巴比伦王国侵略犹大国,掳掠了1万多犹大人,公元前586年,灭亡犹大国,掳掠了3万多人,公元前581年将剩余的犹大人全部虏掠走,只留下少数穷苦人种地和管理葡萄园。这三次对犹大人的掳掠,就是历史上著名的“巴比伦囚虏”。巴比伦人对这些犹大人轻蔑的称之为“犹太人”,后来,就变成对希伯来人、以色列人的一种通用称呼了。现在希伯来人、以色列人和犹太人基本上是一个意思,指的是信仰犹太教的这个古老民族了。
时光流逝,伊朗高原上的波斯人渐渐强大起来,在公元前538年建立了强盛的古波斯帝国。波斯人是雅利安人,他们在灭亡新巴比伦王国时,得到了过着流放生活的犹太人的支持。波斯大帝居鲁士宣布开释犹太人,允许返回巴勒斯坦,重建犹太圣殿。于是,犹太人纷纷返回故园,形成了一个以耶路撒冷为中心的“祭司王国”,虽然不是一个独立的国家,但犹太人在古波斯帝国的存在的200年中,过上了自由与回归的日子。波斯人有比较宽容的民族政策和宗教政策,少数民族在波斯帝国里得到了尊重和平等,犹太人对此是铭记在心的。
公元前332年,马其顿亚历山大帝国灭亡了古波斯帝国,建立了世界上第一个横跨欧亚非的大帝国。但亚历山大大帝早逝,帝国四分五裂,帝国分化出来的托勒密王朝对犹太人友好。但公元前198年,塞琉古王朝夺到巴勒斯坦后,对犹太人强行希腊化,犹太人的好日子结束了。
公元前63年,新崛起的罗马帝国侵入了巴勒斯坦,犹太人进入了一个漫长的黑暗与苦斗的年代。犹太人共进行了三次惊天动地的大起义,失败后,大多数犹太人被罗马帝国逐出巴勒斯坦,流亡到世界各地,这个时候,大约在公元150年左右。
公元614年,复兴的波斯帝国从东罗马帝国手中夺回了巴勒斯坦,犹太人象他们的祖先一样,照样给波斯人以支持,波斯人依然让犹太人自己管理耶路撒冷,但好景不长,东罗马帝国3年后夺回了巴勒斯坦,犹太人被逐出了耶路撒冷。
其后,犹太人分布于全世界各地,巴勒斯坦的犹太人已经很少了。波斯人也被阿拉伯人、突厥人、蒙古人、土库曼人所统治,直到公元1925年才建立了波斯人的国家,就是现在的伊朗。由于犹太人和波斯人在历史上有着良好的关系,所以在伊朗有数万犹太人,他们和波斯人关系处得很好。他们是伊朗国籍的犹太人,信仰自由,为国家努力工作。希特勒屠杀犹太人时,伊朗驻欧洲大使馆营救了数以千计的犹太人。以色列建立后,伊朗也是最早承认的伊斯兰国家之一。
Do yourself a favor and read other books than the bible! If I were next to you now, I would have bitten you for the amount of confusions that you're spitting :) First, I never mentioned Persians! Also, Persians are the first guys who distroyed the first Jewish temple of Jerusalem and killed almost every single Jewish there (google it or check wikipedia) ... I'm not sure how you made the lovely friendship between them - quite a mistery :-) Your historical facts are all biblical claims, and I'm therefore simply turning them down! I'm almost sure I can find a religious book that claims that China belongs to Tibet :) Besides, you seem to forget that Persian have become Muslim longtime ago! Muslims took over Jerusalem under Khalif Omar and kicked out the Romans (Byzantines to be more precise). Back then, there was only a minority of Jews; and most of them reentered Jerusalem with the Muslims.
偶就随便给了两个link,这个时光倒流就要咬死偶的样子。。。偶的头发都竖起了。。。
偶特意撇开基督教的文章,以免有人有歧义。谁知道人家能时光倒流,改写历史呢?服了!
Sorry for being too rough in answering your post! I used quite some strong terms that I could have easily avoided. Unfortunately I do not have online documents that support my claim (150 years) ... everything that you may find online about Jerusalem is already written by pro-Israelis. But I will promise to spend more time on looking for the documents (and if needed, I will scan them and put them online). The kingdom of Israel existed for 600 years but was not centered in Jerusalem only: Hebron was the capital for most of the time and then Jerusalem for a minor period. Anyway, wikipedia, although, does not agree with my views, reports that the whole life of the kingdom is about 600 years (and mostly concentrated in Jerusalem) which is honestly not that long period relatively to the time Muslim spent in Jerusalem (sine year 638). BTW, Palestenian Muslims are Arab of culture and mostly Phoenician ethnically (group that existed in Palestine way before the Jews entered that area). Here is something from Wikipedia:
"Jerusalem is considered Islam's third holiest city after Mecca and Medina. Among Muslims of an earlier era, it was referred to as al-Bayt al-Muqaddas; later, it became known as al-Quds al-Sharif. In 638, the Islamic Caliphate extended its dominion to Jerusalem.[52] With the Arab conquest, Jews were allowed back into the city.[53] The Rashidun caliph Umar ibn al-Khattab signed a treaty with Monophysite Christian Patriarch Sophronius, assuring him that Jerusalem's Christian holy places and population would be protected under Muslim rule.[54] Umar was led to the Foundation Stone on the Temple Mount, which he cleared of refuse in preparation for building a mosque. According to the Gaullic bishop Arculf, who lived in Jerusalem from 679-688, the Mosque of Umar was a rectangular wooden structure built over ruins which could accommodated 3,000 worshipers.[55] The Umayyad caliph Abd al-Malik commissioned the construction of the Dome of the Rock in the late 7th century.[56] The 10th century historian al-Muqaddasi writes that Abd al-Malik built the shrine in order to compete in grandeur of Jerusalem's monumental churches.[55] Over the next four hundred years, Jerusalem's prominence diminished as Arab powers in the region jockeyed for control.[57]"
I completely understand that Jews suffered a lot in the past, but that can never explain or excuse the atrocities that they are committing in Palestine. Israel as established 60 years ago is based upon a very racist ideology named "zionism". In a nutshell, this is what happened: Europeans massacred Jews during the second world war; but then kind of felt guilty and wanted to pay back to the one who survived (actually they really did not feel guilty, they just wanted to relocate them from Europe to somewhere else). The one who survived were unfortunately fueled by zionism and wanted to establish a nation in Palestine which back then was under British control despite the fact that it was 99% Arab. The British did not mind giving the land to the Jews even though it was dwelled by other people. Once the zionists moved to Palestine, they started forming terrorist groups that chased many Palestenians out and killed many others. That's pretty much how they grew this big and swallowed Jerusalem entirely.
到底了
Hot Deals
All Deals