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Huaren
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meggiejin

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[转帖]投资(III)-股票的基本概念

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2007-01-06 21:52:00

从法理上来讲,投资人持有一家公司的股票,他/她就是该公司的股东(owner)。但一家公司可能发行几十万,几百万张股票,小投资者的区区几十,几百张,在股东大会上是没有什么份量的。同时,当一家公司破产,公司财产变卖后,先还的是债务,而股东则排在最后。那么,作为小股东,有什么好处呢?

我们都知道,当我们把钱存进银行,我们会有利息。而作为股东,则是分红(dividend)。这个红利就是股票的价值所在。离开了红利,就没有人买股票,作股东了。但红利不等于现在就能拿到手。所以,一家上市公司即使现在没有红利,只要有发展前景,将来有红利可分,投资者依然愿意为将来的红利而投资。

如果公司把它的利润(earning)都拿来分红,股票的价值的计算就变得简单。可是,公司一般只把它赚得的利润的一部分拿来分给股东,留下一部分作为公司的发展。有的公司会选择给股东更多的分红,有的少些,所以,仅仅看红利是不能看到公司运行的全貌。而公司的利润可能会更全面地反映公式最近的运行状况。所以,衡量股票价值的高低的一个重要指标是股票价格和它一年每股所得的利润的比值(P/E)。但P/E值实际代表的是过去公司的表现。而买股票的投资者是要将来的利润。所以,对公司将来利润的预期是挑选股票的一个重要因素。

还有几个常用的概念。这包括P/B,是指股票的价格与公司每股所对应的book value(book value=asset-liability)的比值。P/cash flow(cash flow=earning-dividend-debt),是公司运行情况的良好指标。PEG(projected earning growth)是看公司发展的一个指标。大家都知道2000年前公司财务上作手脚,欺骗了很多投资者。找到独立的分析师的数据,与同行业的其他公司比,才有意义。这些定义,是自己挑选股票的投资者必备的知识。

有了以上知识,我们就知道股票不是一张简单的票票。它的价值是由它的发行公司现在或将来的红利决定。但由于股票的价格又受到投资者的心理因素影响,在一定程度上,它的价格会偏离,甚至严重偏离它的内在价值。这样,它又是一张简单的票票。对于投资者来说,如何找到价格低于它的价值的股票,是一门很大的学问。找到了这个窍门,也较找到了阿里巴巴的密码。

投资者都会在一定的时间买进股票,然后买出股票。投资人的可能回报来自两个部分:持有股票期间发行公司的分红和股票价格变化带来的capital gain。所以,预测股票在一定时期内的走势是必要的。前面讲到两种理论来预测股票的走势。一种是所谓的技术分析,就是从过去的股票走势来预测将来的走势。这种做法在学术界是受到嘲弄地。因为,没有一种这样的分析能够真正预测未来的股票价格走向,统计下来的成功率和随机的预测没有什么差别。

那么,价值性投资者的表现又如何呢?据说80%以上的华尔街专业人士是价值性投资的信徒。可我们看看基金的表现吧:近70-80%的人为选择股票的基金的表现不如计算机操作的指数基金。为什么?一个简单的原因就在于对未来公司的营运情况的预测实在太难。投资者的信心,工作机会,政治因素,通货膨胀引起的利率变化等等都会影响股市的走向。就是那些吃这碗饭的所谓“professional”也好不到那里去。但如同炒股票的人中有人赚到钱一样,价值性投资者中的著名人士也有不少:Peter Lynch, Warren Buffet...。只是这样的人少之又少。

所以,作为一个踏踏实实的投资者, 我们一定要记住一个原则:Don't try to beat the market。其实,回头看过去的100年也好,50年也好,30年也行,只要回报能够与整个market相当,如果每年放入一万块,30-35年后,我们的退休金早就够了。

投资的真正诀窍是就是三个:持之以恒(keep putting),分散风险(diversification),长期投资(start early)。

Huaren
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ws

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2007-01-07 00:08:00

One correction, instead saying "Don't try to beat the market", it should be "Don't try to time the market". 
Huaren
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1976

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2007-01-07 00:36:00

以下是引用ws在2007-1-7 0:08:00的发言:
One correction, instead saying "Don't try to beat the market", it should be "Don't try to time the market". 

I think both are important and correct.

1) Don't try to beat the market (in the long run).

2) Don't try to time the market (in the long run).

hehe.

Huaren
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xyin

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2007-01-07 21:10:00

interesting. I am trying to do both

1) Beat the market (20 year time frame)

2) time the market (20 year time frame).

Your entry point is critical. exiting strategy should be set before you buy anything.

Huaren
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ws

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2007-01-07 23:29:00

以下是引用xyin在2007-1-7 21:10:00的发言:

interesting. I am trying to do both

1) Beat the market (20 year time frame)

2) time the market (20 year time frame).

Your entry point is critical. exiting strategy should be set before you buy anything.

How are you going to time the market in 20 year time frame? 

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xyin

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2007-01-08 08:45:00

以下是引用ws在2007-1-7 23:29:00的发言:

How are you going to time the market in 20 year time frame? 

if during the 20 year time frame, say 4 year bear, 3 year bull, (roughly). if this 20 year started with a bear,

4 + 3 + 4 + 3 + 4 + 2 (2.67 bull, 3 whole bear market)

if starts with a bull, 3 + 4 + 3 + 4 + 3 + 3 (3 whole bull, 2.75 bear)

say in bull market, return is 50%, bear return is -20%

if you have 10k, at the end of the 20 year, you have:

if you have 10k, at the end of the 20 year, you have:

if start with bear market, if you don't time the market, you will end up with

10 (0.8)^3 (1.5)^2 (1.5 * 2/3) = 11.52k

if start with bull market, if you don't time the market, you will end up with

10 (1.5) ^3 (0.8)^2 (0.8 * 3/4) = 12.96k

if you time the market, but timing is not perfect, (nobody can), so you get 40% return on the bull market, and you avoid loss on the bear market.
for the first case, you got 2.67 bull
10K (1.4)^2.67 = 24.55k

for the second case, you get 3 whole bull
10k (1.4)^3 = 27.44k

so now you can tell the difference.

for individual invester, we do not have 50 years. If you have been through the last dot come crash, and lost 80% of the money, you may never get the chance to come back.

Legitimate scam, that's what many market ananysis or MF manager want you to believe, so-called invest in long term. for many of us here, we are young, we dont have too much money. we have enough time to start from 0, but for many others, this is not the case.

Why do I say 20 year time frame, most of us will not start serious investing until early 30, this is when you have a stable job, and start to make significant more than you spend. say you invest till some time in early or late 50s, you've got roughly 20-25 years.

Huaren
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xyin

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2007-01-08 08:55:00

this is a simple calculation, just to prove a point, so please do not critisize the numbers chosen.
Huaren
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ws

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2007-01-10 00:15:00

以下是引用xyin在2007-1-8 8:55:00的发言:
this is a simple calculation, just to prove a point, so please do not critisize the numbers chosen.

I can roughly understand your calculation.  However!!!  How can you tell if the next 3-4 yrs are going to be bull/bear market?  You calculation is based on a given assumption that YOU KNOW that market is going to be bull/bear market.  There are actually three market:  Bull, Bear and Flat.  Probaility-speaking, each market will have equal chance of occuring in any given year(that is 33.333333% chance for each market occurance).  You have to take the weighted average of all your projected numbers, which means that your number will be significantly diluted.  Plus, more importantly, I think it is very important to define my defination of "market".  Market mean the whole market that contains all possible asset class (equity, bonds, real-estate, commodity, and many others).  So, a bull market in equity can translate into bear market in other asset class.  I believe that your calculation seems to be only restricted in equity market (correct me if I am wrong).  When you consider the whole-market concept, the expected return of a well-diversifed portfilio should be the weighed average return of all its asset class.  Bottom line:  (1)I don't know how to apply calcuations base on "Certain Future Events" (I"know" next yr will be bull/bear market), (2) Market concept is based on a whole-market concept.  I can you that you must have taken lot of time-value class.

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la_tian

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2007-02-25 21:03:00

谢谢!!
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Huaren
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gg

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2007-02-26 10:41:00

同意ws的观点。你要timing就已经假设了你能预测市场。而这,是不可能的。Warren Buffet不能,我也不认为你能。
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